Financial Tips for Widows: Estate Planning, Prenups, and Managing Money

In this podcast episode, Donna Kendrick, a fellow widow and Certified Financial Planner, shares her go-to financial tips for widows as she explains what the post loss financial landscape looked like for her. She talks about finding a new community, embarking on a new career path, and the importance of financial planning when you’re a widow.

In the raw, unpredictable landscape of widowhood, many widows find themselves navigating more than just the tumultuous waves of grief. Along with the emotional rollercoaster, comes the often muddled world of finances, debts, and the ever-looming question of “what’s next?”

Key topics in this episode include:

• Maintaining your privacy vs. sharing financial information with well-meaning friends and family
• Addressing immediate financial concerns vs. long-term financial planning
• Dating and remarriage considerations, including estate planning and prenups

Listen in as we tackle the tangible and intangible challenges of a widow’s journey and Donna offers up some practical financial tips for widows. Remember, you don’t need to be a financial guru to master your money.

You simply need to take that first step towards reclaiming your financial peace.

Listen to the Full Episode

Links + Resources From This Episode

• Donna’s website
• Donna’s Book A Guide to Widowhood: Navigating the First Three Years
• The Grief Recovery Method
• Follow us on Instagram and subscribe to our YouTube channel

Episode Transcript

Jen: Welcome back, listeners. I am so excited to have our very special guest on this week.

We have Donna Kendrick joining us. She is a financial expert and she’s also a widow.

She is going to share her widowhood experience with us, but also show us a thing or two that we need to know about our finances.

I’m so excited to have her on today. Thank you, Donna.

Donna: Thank you so much for having me. I’m happy to share my story and any wisdom that this experience has given me, so thank you.

Navigating Finances and Privacy in Widowhood

Jen: Well, let’s go ahead. We’ll just kind of dive right in. Can you please tell us your widow story and how did you become a widow?

Donna: So, I’m 50. We’ll start there, and then we’ll back up 10 years. On my 40th birthday, I remember coming into work and saying to everyone, “40 isn’t so bad. I don’t know what everyone complains about. This is awesome.” And a week later, my husband died. I was like, oh, crapola. 40 sucks.

My husband, Greg, was 42. He died suddenly. He had taken his own life. So, it was a shock. It really was. We had just bought a new home and moved into a district very close to the suburbs of Philadelphia, where he and I were born and raised. The kids and I had lived abroad with Greg for 7 years, so we had just gone stateside. We just got back home.

So, it was a huge snow globe, let’s put it that way, a shaky snow globe of getting the kids settled. They’re speaking English in school finally, and suddenly we lost him. I was working part time in the kids’ school. Like, how are we gonna make ends meet? Like, how are we going to adjust? How are we going to go forward with that?

Jen: You said you had just moved back. And how long were you back?

Donna: Two months. We were two months in the area, and I was lucky we moved into the school district that my sister was in. She had been there for 14 years. So, when my husband got relocated back to Philadelphia, I was like, hey, “Do you like your school district? Do you have good friends? I’m gonna come take them over. Have a good day.”

And that’s kind of what I did. I stole my sister’s friends. I sucked all the compassion out of her district. My office now is in that district because everyone took such good care of us. There were meal trains. Food was delivered. There were people offering to take my kids to baseball and football practice from families who just didn’t even know us, but they knew our story.

They knew we were trying to get settled, and, yeah, money was tight. We had just bought a house, so that cash reserve, that extra few months of savings that you had, had gone into a down payment on the house while we sold the other house. So, it was definitely tight. It was tight. We needed every piece of help that we could get.

Jen: I’m just thinking you’re taking on all these things, all the changes just from the move and settling and then this major thing happens. How old were your kids at the time?

Donna: My kids were eight, 11 and 12 at the time. For my youngest, this was okay because he was literally, like, growing up in this district. He was planting his seeds. Right? For my older two in middle school, it was a little rougher. They were a little more mature. They had already switched schools every two years with us living abroad. So, there were good parts to that. They knew how to reinvent themselves. They knew how to establish themselves in the place of unknown.

So that was good, but trying to do that when someone takes their life? No matter how attached you are to the community or not, it’s gossipy. Like, let’s just say what it is. We became “that family.” So, my kids were navigating that. Hearing kids talk about, “oh, did you hear someone took their life in this community?” And they’re like, “it was us.”

They would come off the bus and be like, “they were talking about that in the cafeteria line.” People got their facts mixed up. Things were said on the bus. Things were said on bleachers that I overheard myself. So, I think of everything that we had to navigate because of the way my husband passed in a new community was a blessing and a curse at the same time.

People didn’t know us, so it was okay to kind of talk about us not knowing it was us, if that makes any sense? But then again, no one knew us. We were so lucky we had finally moved close to Philadelphia. My husband had a large, large family, so we were suddenly back with cousins and aunts and uncles that my kids hadn’t experienced for a very long time.

Jen: Oh. Thank God for that. Yeah. That makes a big difference.

Donna: To this day, they’re close, close friends of mine. I’m remarried, and close friends of my new husband and his family too.

Jen: Nice. As a mom, your kids get off the bus and they’re talking about other kids talking about them and what do you say? Like, how do you handle that?

Donna: It’s hard. I can honestly say at that point in time, I was very happy that I had raised them with a good deal of sarcasm. So, we could really attach it with some humor, dry humor if it needed to be. But for myself trying to navigate this community, I’m a girl who was born and raised in Philly. Like, you want to go knocking on someone’s door and tell them what to think. You want to, like, go in the school directory and find that kid’s mom.

I had to give myself what I called the 24-hour rule. Before I talk to anyone, before I make any type of decision, I have to give it 24 hours. Because I don’t want to make a reaction caught up in emotion.

Jen: I know. You’re automatically just on the defense. My babies have been through enough, you know? You don’t need to pile it on.

Donna: Don’t get me wrong. I definitely had a presence at that bus stop every time from then on.

Jen: So you said you were working at the kids’ school? Did you continue doing that?

Donna: I did. So, when we lived abroad, I had to give up my career, because it was a conflict of interest with my husband working at the embassy. I wound up teaching at a grade school, an elementary school, teaching Italian kids English. So that’s where I kind of got my foothold working in the schools. When we came back stateside and moved to this area, I got a job as a teacher’s assistant in the school.

I was really lucky that my husband and I had life insurance. I was lucky that, with Social Security coming in, I was able to pay the bills. I knew I could keep my house. I was able to keep that job for two years. I liked it because I was in the middle school where my kids were. So that way I knew all their schedules. That way I had eyeballs on my own kids, and now I had a connection with the teachers that were interacting with them. I was really, really lucky to be able to afford to stay at that part time status, and lucky that I was positioned in my kid’s school. I call it management by walking around.

And then two years after that I switched financial advisers. My late husband and I had a financial adviser early in our 20’s before we moved abroad, and that adviser is who got us the life insurance that I always say covered my butt. But after, like so many other people and widows and widowers out there, about 70 to 80% switch financial advisers after they’ve had a loss, and I did too. My financial adviser had moved into small business succession. I just didn’t think he could hold my hand as a widow for what I needed.

So, I found a great financial adviser, and he had let me know that probably after the two-year mark, I need to make a decision. I had to go back to work. I had to make an income. Not only was I missing my husband’s income, but I was missing his ability to save for retirement. I’d given up my career. So, I had no more retirement savings. And so, I went back to him after two years and said, “I want to do what you did for me for other people.”  

So I went back to school, and then I began giving financial advice for families in transition. That whole, when life gives you lemons, you gotta make lemonade. That was it because that’s what made me feel strong. That’s what made me feel independent. That’s what made me feel like I could tell people I’m gonna be okay.

It was knowing I could keep a roof over my kid’s head that I could educate them from the blessings of life insurance and benefits.

The Stages of Financial Transition after Loss

Jen: I want to go back to the decision that you made about going back to school. That’s a big commitment as a solo parent. I mean, we gotta do so much. Right? We’re doing everything and then you add that in and it’s huge. How did you manage all of that?

Donna: Well, you know, I don’t do things simply. I think you might have realized that from our first introduction. So not only did I make the decision to go back to school, but the kids and I had made a decision to move. So, after two years, the kids had come to me and said, “mom, this house is where daddy died. It’s never really felt like home. Could we afford to move?”

They had gone through enough counseling that they knew how to sit me down and how to phrase those questions. So, the For Sale sign goes to the front lawn when your kids tell you they want out.

I found a fixer upper in the same community and was able to move in. While we were fixing up this house, I was studying to go back to school while still working part time.

I was sitting there, probably still in my pajamas at, like, 2:00 in the afternoon studying, and the contractor, who was a wonderful contractor asked me, “why don’t you just quit the part-time job and go to school full-time?” He was like, you’ve got too much on your plate. Your kids barely see you. Just get it done. You’ll make more money in the long run if you step away and just get it done.

So, here’s a third party observer who’s over there fixing my toilet and tiling my backsplash, being like, hey, lady, you’re running out of energy here. You gotta do something different.

I remember talking to him months later and I told him I resigned. His wife was like, “who’s listening to you? Oh my god. Did that widow just take career advice from her contractor?”

But it worked, right?

Jen: That was the sign that you needed. That is just a lot of plates to juggle. That is too much. It’s too much.

Donna: We’re solo parents. We’re juggling, giving the kids enough attention, studying on our own, trying to have some type of social life, if that’s possible, plus working. So, by taking those eight hours a day out, I was able to really just get the work done and get my toes into the career field sooner rather than later. It was good advice from a contractor.

Jen: I know. I love this part of your story because a lot of widows are scared to do something like that. They don’t have that confidence in themselves as a parent, as a person trying to run the house. They don’t think that they can do that. They talk themselves out of it. Right? We talk ourselves out of a lot of things.

Donna: I think a lot of too is, like, if I really sat down and closed my eyes and was like, who do I trust in this world? It was me.

Jen: Yeah. For anyone that is listening to this, it’s like you have this in you. You have this strength in you, and you have the ability to do these things. You just need to trust yourself and know that you can do it. It’s just amazing to me what you did.

So, what do you feel was your biggest struggle as a widow looking back on the first year?

Donna: I think my biggest struggle was, I call it the Academy Award-winning performance of The Best Widow. I didn’t want anyone to worry about me. I didn’t want anyone to lose sleep over me and the kids. Like, I felt like we just moved back to this area. Now look at the heavy burden we’ve put on people. I didn’t want anyone to worry. I did everything I could to make it look seamless.

And then here in year two, the bottom dropped out. Right? Like, the year of the firsts were done, I held my breath through all those days. I kept going with high energy and positivity, but I didn’t do the work on myself.

Jen: Right.

Donna: I bumped into the Grief Recovery Method in year two, and that was really helpful to me. It’s just a mathematical brain. So, something that’s an eight-week course in and out helped me. I’m glad I bumped into it.

Jen: I’m going to put the link to that in the show notes because I don’t know if a lot of people are aware of that or have heard of that before. It’s been a really helpful resource for a lot of people. That’s a good a good direction to follow.

Donna: And it’s easy, and it’s digestible. So, I would say the biggest struggle for me was avoiding through positivity in year one. Just going through the motions.

Jen: So when did you get this idea to write your book?

Donna: I was licensed and working as a financial planner, and then 2020 hit. I was focusing very much at that time with widowhood, and my clients in widowhood. During 2020, I realized many of them either didn’t reach out to the financial adviser when they had a spouse pass or they made decisions on their own and just used Uncle Bobby’s advice because it was COVID. We’re all home. And when they were sitting down with me, they were undoing so many of those decisions. We’re starting from scratch when nine months have already passed.

So I wrote the book, and it’s called A Guide to Widowhood: Navigating the First Three Years.

I wrote that because of my experience with those widows during 2020. I wanted to make sure there was a resource, a guidebook, a road map that widows and widowers could have in their hands as soon as the loss happened. They could read my story and know I’ve come from this. And I didn’t want to have to tell my story too often again. Right? That was a great therapy way for me to just be real with it. A lot of what’s in the book is it’s okay to only make some decisions. It’s okay to be private with your information.

It’s okay to feel lost. And, hey, here’s a glossary of terms people are gonna be throwing at you. It’s gonna make your head spin. So, here’s a digestible quick guide. Like, I used to call them cliff notes when I was in high school. Didn’t read the whole summer reading book, but you needed to know what was going on for the exam. Like, I feel like I want to make a cliff note for those first few years of widowhood so someone could pick it up and feel like they could be at the table for the discussions about their finances.

Jen: I’ve talked to so many widows and they talk about the privacy thing. You don’t have to reveal everything to everybody, but some of your friends or even just acquaintances, they’re like, “oh, do you have life insurance?” It’s a kind of private question, but are they just being concerned? You kind of take it one way, but maybe you take it another way and you’re like, none of your business, but are they just trying to help me? I don’t know.

Donna: Right. Are they trying to create a GoFundMe if I need it? Like, you don’t know what’s nosy versus good intentions.

Jen: Exactly.

Donna: And I like to say it’s all good intentions, but I also have a very good quote that I have used for years, and it’s “a wise man once said nothing.” And I’m borrowing it from someone else because I talk a lot, if you can’t tell. Right? And my heart’s on my sleeve nowadays, but it’s true. A wise man once said nothing.

Jen: I love that quote because it’s like you might have a distant coworker or somebody who’s asking, but maybe they’re all trying to help you and set up a GoFundMe. You don’t know. Because when it comes to finances, even with close family, you’re just like, I don’t know. Should I say that? Should I not? It’s a tricky subject. It is. So, when we are talking about finances in that first six months or so, what are some of the things that we need to know about right away, and could you give us a little guidance with that?

Donna: Yeah. Definitely the big things to know right away, I’ll say three tips. 1) get organized. I always give out what I call my personal document locator, but it’s like, where is everything? Because sometimes you realize that life insurance exists, or they had another account back from when they had a job four years ago. So, get organized, dig through that paperwork, find one or two trusted souls that will help you dig through the paperwork. And if you’re organized already, awesome, list everything together. When I say list things together, once we have all the documents we need, make sure you understand where your flows of income are.

What do you make? What could be a pension from our late husband or wife? What do we have in Social Security? What might we have in life insurance? So, identify those flows and income. And I’ll also identify where the flow outflows. What are your liabilities? What’s the car payment? What’s the mortgage? When’s it due? What’s a bill payer? What’s not? Wow. We’re widows in grief, and now we’ve got to organize all of this. It’s true. So, organize your documents. Identify your inflows. Identify your outflows.

And then my last really important piece of advice in the first six months is to get the help you need. We’re always really good at what we do. It could be great counselors, great teachers, great financial planners, but we need a team. We need an estate attorney. We need an accountant. We need a financial adviser. We need a counselor. Right? Someone maybe helps us organize the house, but you can’t do it all.

You can’t do all that heavy lifting as the world is swirling, so don’t be afraid to reach out. And many of these financial professionals, accountants, attorneys, myself will give an hour consultation. No charge. Use that time to pick their brain. Get the roadmap. There’s a lot of really good people out there and find the ones that match you.

I think when you find those professionals, you’ll be able to have that privacy that you’re looking for.

Jen: You have things that you have to take care of immediately. At least we did, like subscription things. I mean, here’s the $7.99 for Netflix. Here’s the $10.99 for Disney Channel. That is all coming out of this account. These teeny tiny little things that you have to add up and be aware of to make sure that your bases are covered. It is so hard to keep track of all that stuff. And you have to do it right away because it’s like the first of the month is coming. This is getting taken out. What’s happening?

Donna: Or people’s credit cards are automatically shut down, and now you don’t have access to see which bills are coming out because you didn’t download the most recent statement. One more key thing. Make sure you pull your credit report. You can go to annualcreditreport.com as soon as your spouse passes, so you know the baseline of your individual credit history. You can get a free copy through annualcreditreport.com.

Jen: Add that to the list.

Donna: It’s not what you want to do when you’re in grief, but, yeah, sit down one night and go to annualcreditreport.com.

Jen: So, you talk about the stages of navigating your finances in widowhood. We just talked a little bit about those first six months, but what are these other things that come up for us?

Donna: I call those first six-month goals immediate goals, like the things you have to do. You have to apply for life insurance. You have to contact Social Security. Then we move to the transitional goals. And those are things in year two.

It was at the end of year two that I was like, I know I have to be a big girl and go back to work now. What’s that gonna look like? That’s when I started making those transitional goals. I’ve moved all these accounts over into my name. How do I really want to invest them? Sometimes it’s just aggregating all the accounts together, so you feel like the world isn’t spinning. Now that I’m more into my own groove, what decisions do I need to make about those funds?

And then we have long-term goals. And they’re big things like, what do I want for retirement? How do I have to get there?

Jen: That’s another tough one when you think about it because you had these plans for retirement, and this is what this picture was supposed to look like for your retirement. So, when you start talking about that and getting to that point and planning for it, it’s not just here’s the numbers on the paper that I have to deal with. It’s a lot of emotion involved in that as well.

Donna: 100%. I mean, my husband and I had a rental property that was supposed to be our retirement property. But now I’m managing real estate. Not what I wanted to be doing, but I held on to it. But in year two, I made the decision of, could I keep that property? Should I keep that property for passive income? Is it getting me angry, managing it? Those are the decisions I was not making in the first year, not making in the second year. It was later on, because I wasn’t going to retire there.

I think that would be 30 years a widow and I’d be heartbroken because it was his retirement dream. It wasn’t mine.

Jen: See? We talk about being a widow for however number of years it is. You think you’re fine. You’re doing fine. Years go by, and then it’s like this, this other grief bomb or something that comes up again later. It could be years later. What do you call them?

Donna: Bumps. Do you have those stop bumps, like, the speed bumps in streets? Like, oh, what was that? The grief walks with you. You don’t get over it. It walks with you.

It will still be there, and that’s the grief itself is remembering the person we loved. And it does start to shift, I believe, at least in my experience. But when I think of something and it’s like, you know, you feel it in the back of your throat. You feel it in the pit of your stomach. You feel it in your heart. But some of that is appreciation. Right? Like, there’s no way I would have had this career and flipped myself and pushed my career if Greg hadn’t passed, but he did.

Jen: Look at the amazing things that have happened for you and come out of this as far as just personal development. I mean, you’re just a totally different person than you would have been. So I want to ask a personal question. When did you take off your ring?

Donna: I did not have my ring on. So, if you remember, I said we lived abroad. When we lived abroad, I put my ring in a safe deposit box in the US because I heard that there was a lot of pick-pocketing where we lived. And big US engagement rings were on a hot commodity list, so I put it in a safe deposit box. Because my husband and I were moving when he passed, I hadn’t taken it out because I needed to get that special insurance on my ring, and so I didn’t have it on when he passed. And it still sits there, and now it’s part of my estate for my daughter when she one day gets married.

Jen: Oh my goodness. Well, so you didn’t have it the whole time, the seven years that you were abroad?

Donna: Yeah. I had, like, a Diamondique ring when I lived abroad. And when I came back stateside, the US water turned it green and made my finger itchy. So, I took it off and my finger had a rash. Swear to God.

Jen: So maybe that was a blessing in disguise. Right?

Donna: I have a rashy finger from a cheap fake diamond ring. The real one’s beautiful listeners. It’s beautiful. My daughter’s lucky.

Entering New Relationships: Protecting Your Assets

Jen: So, tell us a little bit about Jim. How did you meet?

Donna: So, I got remarried last year. We had known one another for years. If we talk back about that contractor that gave me the advice to step away from work, that was Jim. That was him.

He always told me the color of the front door that I picked when we redid this house was ugly, and that there should only be three colors on the side of a house. Right? And I was adding a fourth, and I was a dumb-dumb for doing it.

So, the dog scratched the front door. I painted it black. So, there are only three colors on the house and it did look amazing. I took a picture of it, and I sent it to him and said, “you were right.” All these years later, the door looks amazing black. So, what happened is his marriage had ended. They had both moved on, and that was it.

You just have to tell someone, oh, after all these years, you were right, and then all of a sudden you’re dating. It is lovely. We’re a blended family now with two dogs, a cat, six kids, and him and I running it together. It’s been beautiful.

Jen: Six kids. Yes. How fun!

Donna: It is. They go from ages 13 to 22 now, and it’s lovely because I have the older three. He has the younger three. And we talk about how people say how hard it can be. Like, I can’t write a book on that because it was just easy. The kids were wonderful about it. They were. They were just in rhythm with one another. They use one another as counselors, as Ubers, and it does make life easier for me and Jim.

Like, they have a pack. What me and Jim don’t have to know about is good, and then they carry on their own. Sneaky little devils that I love.

Jen: Oh, that’s fantastic. Okay. So, another question that we get a lot and I wanted to bring this up and have you give us some good advice. What’s some advice that you can give to widows who are getting into a serious relationship, a new relationship, and what they need to be thinking about as far as combining assets and protecting themselves at the same time.

Donna: It’s tricky. This is a tricky one. And for the listeners, I will be 100% vulnerable here. Before I met Jim, the dating experience wasn’t good. Jim actually witnessed one of my dating experiences, and he brings it up on a daily basis, okay? It was short-lived.

Anyway, they don’t need to know everything in the beginning of the relationship. There are some people out there that just generally want to know because they care, and then there’s some people out there that genuinely want to know because they have a different agenda. And we as widows are very vulnerable. I was so vulnerable because I felt like I was worthless because my husband took his life. Right? Like, oh, I wasn’t worth staying on the earth for, so I’m not gonna be worth anything to anybody.

Not true. Right? But that’s a gremlin in the back of your head. So, I presented that way and attracted that way. So, yeah, you have to be really careful. Do your inner work, too. I’m not saying don’t go out and have a good time. I’m not saying don’t go out and have companionship, but make sure you’re ready before you step into it.

Have your privacy. They don’t need to know everything right now. That will reveal itself if this relationship is worthwhile. It will. And when you do find that relationship that’s worthwhile and you can reveal that, know truly your rights. Know your rights to your assets. Know what assets will stop, which will continue.

And I will just use my mom as an example. Like, my mom and dad got divorced. My mom got remarried. She had no clue alimony would stop when she got remarried to someone else. Pensions stop. Other benefits sometimes stop when you get remarried. So be aware before you jump all the way in.

Know what will continue and what will stop. And then if you do decide to get remarried, I wholeheartedly recommend a prenup not because you always hear people be like, oh, you know, well, you don’t believe the marriage is gonna work? No. It’s everyone just putting their cards on the table and understanding that the prenup can actually even just say yours, mine, and everyone’s, but let’s make sure everyone’s cards are on the table at that time. What’s titled in your name before the marriage is yours. Remember that.

Jen: I know the prenup thing. It’s not about the amount of love that you have for the person. I agree.

Donna: Oh, yeah. I make it a math game. Like there’s motions on the left, there’s math on the right. Just like you did when you first became a widow, you did your net worth. What are my flows in? What is my outcome? What’s my retirement? How’s the house titled? Think of the prenup as a lawyer helping you create that road map. And that you’re sharing it because you have an open communication with the person you love. That’s all.

And then grow in your love together.

But use caution. Fix yourself first, and not everyone has to know your financial business.

I became a very stubborn independent widow. So, when I married, and we had to share things, I was like a little 2-year-old stamping my feet like I wanted it my way. It was always my way. I didn’t have to double check with anyone. He just stood there quiet. Like, that’s not gonna work.

Jen: I know my attitude going in going into a new relationship was this differs completely from when I first got married in my twenties when I had nothing. I had barely even started working and had no money, no savings, nothing to my name.

And I’m getting married, and he’s in the same position, so there’s nothing to start with. Now, you know, we’re talking 15 or 20 years later or however long it is for you, you’re in a totally different world. It’s more coming to that table, so you’ve got to protect yourself and everything that you’ve worked for in your entire life.

Donna: And you have to have that conversation. We have six kids. I fully funded for state school a 529 for my kids. I’ll work hard. I’ll make ends meet, but I’m gonna get their education put aside. Right now, I love Jim’s kids as much as I love my own. Like, wouldn’t I want the same for them? But I don’t have the same resources I did through that life insurance 10 years ago to make that decision. So how do we make everyone equitable? It’s hard.

I can’t say I figured it out.

We’re just working hard and saving more. Hoping you’re brilliant. Like, full scholarship. Kids, don’t make me feel guilty.

Wrap Up

Jen: So, as we get wrapped up, what are some final words of wisdom that you can share with our listeners, a final piece of advice that you can share?

Donna: Have those trusted people in your world even if it’s just one. We’re on our own now. Let’s say I didn’t get remarried to Jim, and I haven’t put my estate documents in order. Because it was just me for the longest time, and there be no one else to translate what I wanted for my kids, for my assets, for any of my charitable giving, and nobody would know when I passed. So have your estate documents done and make sure that you have that one trusted person who knows your funeral arrangements. Plan your own fun funeral. Put it in there and be open about that. You might not get tomorrow.

Be open about it so we can protect the people we love today.

Jen: Oh, Donna, thank you so much for talking to me today. Thank you. Can you please tell everyone where we can find you?

Donna: You can jump on to the website, widow-wisdom.com. And that’s where you’ll be able to get a copy of the book and download some free resources, that personal document locator we talked about. You can download all of those there. And then if you need to find me on any social media, it’s all listed down there. You can kind of navigate the Donna Jean Sefton world.

Jen: Well, I will put the links in the show notes and put that everywhere so everyone can find that easily. And thank you again so much. Thank you so much for talking to me today.

Donna: It’s like having coffee with best friends. It’s very easy. I appreciate it.

Jen: Alright. Thanks again. I’ll talk to you soon.